Gender: Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 6077 Status: Moderator
Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:18 am Post subject:
Jinks wrote:
acting responsible with 'irresponsible' things makes the situation and the person responsible.
I disagree. It makes you less irresponsible, but the responsible thing to do is not to do the irresponsible thing in the first place.
and I already gave you a suggestion: play video games.
Squishy wrote:
dave I know you're a smart guy but you're way too ignorant about this to be arguing
no such thing. This kind of thing affects me. I'm the one who gets killed when a drunk driver runs me over. I'm the one who has to pay higher taxes to support welfare programs for people who are too strung out on drugs to hold down a job. I'm the designated driver that has to put up with a car full of drunks. Drugs really bother me, so don't you dare say I'm not "qualified" to argue about them.
Next thing you're gonna tell me is that I have to take drugs first before I can pass judgement on them. Sorry, that's not how it works. We don't have to kill ourselves before we can condemn suicide.
But you're right, there is one large point I'm ignorant about. For me, absolute control over my mind and body is of paramount priority. I don't understand how anyone could stand getting drunk or high. I really don't understand why anyone would want to abuse drugs.
But I can't stop you, that wouldn't be right. But just because I'm not preventing you from doing it doesn't mean I have to like it.
'cause I've looked at it from as many angles as I can, and still, abusing drugs seems to me like a really stupid thing to do.
And I am unanimous in this. I don't care what being high is like. Whatever it is, it's definitely not worth it. _________________ Come into my den let me hear you cluck
You can be my hen and we can f(Bu-GAWK)
A bite to the leg, it's time to play
Baby, let me be your egg that needs to get laid.
- CEO Nwabudike Morgan
"The Chicken of Lust"
Gender: Joined: 12 Mar 2006 Posts: 1226 Status: User Location: A valley full o' Pioneer.
Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:23 pm Post subject:
Its_The_Sneak!!! wrote:
no such thing. This kind of thing affects me. I'm the one who gets killed when a drunk driver runs me over. I'm the one who has to pay higher taxes to support welfare programs for people who are too strung out on drugs to hold down a job.
This is why it would be difficult to get into this:
Quote:
Can we agree that willingly impairing your ability to think rationally, act quickly, or control yourself is irresponsible?
If not, why not?
If you equate getting drunk with driving drunk, and doing any sort of illicit drug ever with being so drug-addled that you can't hold down a job, than I can see why you think it's so irresponsible. That still doesn't mean those things are actually true, though, and you can't expect someone to believe that all people who get drunk drive drunk simply because you think that getting drunk immediately takes away any control you have over your actions.
Quote:
I'm the designated driver that has to put up with a car full of drunks.
That one's pretty funny to me, just because I imagine you in a car with 3 of your old, drunk uncles or something. I mean, I imagine you aren't doing this willingly, so it must be family, right?
Quote:
Drugs really bother me, so don't you dare say I'm not "qualified" to argue about them.
Many people are bothered by things they probably aren't qualified to talk about. _________________ Married to Terri.
Gender: Joined: 31 Mar 2006 Posts: 894 Status: User Location: New York
Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 5:15 pm Post subject:
I was going to post something regarding being called a hippie or a "bong-addled" type. But then I realized, you came up with these conclusions based on what.. 3 or 4 posts of mine? I put in my opinion on drugs and all of the sudden you think you know who I am? Just so you know, I don't smoke pot anymore and I certainly wouldn't consider myself a hippie. But because I find the effects of psychedelic drugs to be an extremely interesting and meaningful, I am now a hippie. You can call me whatever the hell you want because thankfully, I don't know you (jordan). But don't pretend to know who I am.
Its_The_Sneak!!! wrote:
and I already gave you a suggestion: play video games.
What I'm getting from you is that it is not worth it to do something recreational if it also negatively affects you, correct? You also stated abusing something or becoming addicted to something is bad. Video games are just as addicting as smoking pot. A marijuana addiction is not like a cigarette addiction, where your body tells you that you need nicotine. A marijuana addiction is a mental addiction. It is pleasurable, so you do it more. Why is a video game addiction any less harmful than a marijuana addiction? They both can negatively affect your life, can we agree? A video gamer can become withdrawn because all he wants to do is play his game. He might gain weight because he is not getting enough exercise. He might need to get glasses because he has strained his eyes from playing video games so much. Now, you might tell me that you can play video games and not be a video game addict. The same way you can smoke marijuana and not be a marijuana addict.
Why do you like to play video games? One reason might be because it is an escape from the normal world. Why would you want that? It's all fake and plastic anyway and can negatively affect you so why risk playing video games? I think we can both agree that neither video games nor pot are particularly healthy things to do. But why is it okay to play video games, even though it is all fake and can negatively effect you, but not smoke pot? And let's pretend the pot smoker is responsible about it. He only smokes pot in the comfort of his own home, he never drives while high, he grows his own pot so that he knows where it comes from, and he has full time job. Is this person any worse than an almost identical person who plays video games instead of smoking pot? _________________ secret agent super dragon
Gender: Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 6077 Status: Moderator
Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:28 pm Post subject:
thoraxcorp wrote:
Why do you like to play video games? One reason might be because it is an escape from the normal world. Why would you want that? It's all fake and plastic anyway and can negatively affect you so why risk playing video games? I think we can both agree that neither video games nor pot are particularly healthy things to do. But why is it okay to play video games, even though it is all fake and can negatively effect you, but not smoke pot? And let's pretend the pot smoker is responsible about it. He only smokes pot in the comfort of his own home, he never drives while high, he grows his own pot so that he knows where it comes from, and he has full time job. Is this person any worse than an almost identical person who plays video games instead of smoking pot?
Video games don't impair your judgement. It's not irresponsible to play video games, and no, I don't agree that playing video games is unhealthy. Video games don't negatively affect you, the lifestyle equated with gamers does. Some video games encourage exercise, while most others at least hone your strategical and logical thinking skills and hand-eye coordination. Video games are good for your mind, the exact opposite of drugs. And as for smoking pot specifically, video games have zero risk of giving you cancer.
Escaping from reality is all well and good. Fiction is a good way to do it too. Drugs are not.
But I don't always play video games to escape reality. I usually play video games 'cause they're fun. And hey, I have perfect control over myself while I'm playing video games, so it doesn't break my rule. Drugs do. If my house caught fire while I was gaming, I could quit the game and help get my family out no problem. I'd think any gamer could. However, the typical stoner (since you want to play with stereotypes now) would probably be too entranced by the flames to even get himself out.
Der wrote:
Quote:
Can we agree that willingly impairing your ability to think rationally, act quickly, or control yourself is irresponsible?
If not, why not?
If you equate getting drunk with driving drunk, and doing any sort of illicit drug ever with being so drug-addled that you can't hold down a job, than I can see why you think it's so irresponsible. That still doesn't mean those things are actually true, though, and you can't expect someone to believe that all people who get drunk drive drunk simply because you think that getting drunk immediately takes away any control you have over your actions.
"If you <extreme point of view> then blah blah blah" ANSWER THE QUESTION _________________ Come into my den let me hear you cluck
You can be my hen and we can f(Bu-GAWK)
A bite to the leg, it's time to play
Baby, let me be your egg that needs to get laid.
- CEO Nwabudike Morgan
"The Chicken of Lust"
Gender: Joined: 12 Mar 2006 Posts: 842 Status: User Location: CA
Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:13 pm Post subject:
I swore to myself that I wouldn't post here, but there are actually a ton of studies that show hours of video games per week correlate with aggressive behaviors, poor performance in school, obesity, decreases in likelihood of helping others, lower self esteems, worse sociability, and a ton of other things. You're right about the spatial ability and coordination, though. There have been a few studies that show this (and not all of them are paid for by the US Army, either, so maybe I'll believe it).
However, I could talk for an hour about the health benefits of alcohol, too. It is been shown in so many studies (including the Framingham Heart Study - the most important study in cardiovascular science ever, done by faculty at my school!) that alcohol can help prevent heart failure, coronary artery disease and lower your risk of future heart attacks. I'll stop here, but seriously, I could talk for a really long time about why some alcohol use is good for your health.
I'm not trying to say alcohol is all good, though - when it is abused, it can cause liver failure, alter a ton of metabolic pathways, cause permanent mental status changes, and things caused by the typical "lifestyle" (Dave's word, not mine) - malnutrition and all of the social implications.
I think the point I'm trying to make is that video games can be good and bad, just like alcohol can be good and bad (this can be applied to a lot of drugs, including marijuana - pot can modulate pain and all kinds of things). The grouping of all drug users into some weird universal inferior group is really kind of pointless, since pathology (whether social or biological) is only a product of abuse... which I defined for dave a few days ago, and won't go to the trouble to do again. Use does not equal abuse, and just because someone is a user (or an abuser, for that matter) does not mean they are irresponsible, dumb or inferior. If we are talking about true addiction - that is a real biological remodeling in the brain and is NOT because someone is stupid or doesn't care about Dave's tax money.
Sorry if that was long, I just think about this kind of stuff all day. The conclusion of everything is that moderation is the key, and maybe everyone should stop being so judgmental of others!
Edit:
One more thing, I feel very confident in saying that "poisoning your body" by drugs every once in awhile is a lot less harmful in the long run than actually poisoning your body with fatty and processed foods and lack of exercise. (Except cigarettes. Sorry, those are ALWAYS bad for you.) The leading cause of death in this country is NOT drug use, but cardiovascular disease!
Last edited by Terri on Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:27 pm; edited 5 times in total
Gender: Joined: 12 Mar 2006 Posts: 1416 Status: User Location: Above whatever's below me.
Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:18 pm Post subject:
All the people I see who would advocate the legality of pot were stoners.
On the other hand, if I side with the other side, then I'd be a tool of the man... _________________ beep beep I'm a jeep
Gender: Joined: 12 Mar 2006 Posts: 1226 Status: User Location: A valley full o' Pioneer.
Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:21 pm Post subject:
Its_The_Sneak!!! wrote:
"If you <extreme point of view> then blah blah blah" ANSWER THE QUESTION
The problem is that it's an extreme point of view that you appear to hold; it's not as if I was making up things you might say. You did say them.
No, I don't think that drinking is irresponsible if done responsibly. Since you seem to be resistant to actually defining what you mean by "responsible," preferring instead to give examples of things you think are irresponsible, I'll put a definition out there: "accountable for your actions." It is completely possible to get drunk without losing accountability. Contrary to popular belief, you do not, in fact, go from sober to blacked out and out of control with nothing in-between. _________________ Married to Terri.
Gender: Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 6077 Status: Moderator
Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:25 pm Post subject:
Terri wrote:
I swore to myself that I wouldn't post here, but there are actually a ton of studies that show hours of video games per week correlate with aggressive behaviors, poor performance in school, obesity, decreases in likelihood of helping others, lower self esteems, worse sociability, and a ton of other things. You're right about the spatial ability and coordination, though. There have been a few studies that show this (and not all of them are paid for by the US Army, either, so maybe I'll believe it).
Correlation is not causation, and I'm sure I could point you to other sources that contradict those first studies.
Such as (PDF).
Also, many video game studies are flawed.
Or look here.
Video games correlate to lower crime. (hey, correlation doesn't prove causation, but you used it)
And then there's the APA, which seems to be itself torn over whether violence in media affects children. Brad Bushman and Craig Anderson seem pretty convinced (PDF) it is a huge problem. Jerald Block and Bradford Crain seem pretty convinced the first two are seriously wrong.
and I'm not saying people who are addicted to drugs are stupid. I know it's a physical dependence. However, you can't get addicted to something you never take. I didn't get into risk of addiction here because most of the drugs we're talking about are only mildly addicting at worst. Taking something you know to be highly addictive is pretty idiotic though, if you ask me. Sorry to those who are addicted, but if they didn't make the bad decision in the first place, they wouldn't be stuck with it now.
Although, wait, can babies be born addicted to something because their mom was an addict? In that case, that's a real shame. Maybe it should be illegal for pregnant mothers to use drugs, because it's not only themselves they're harming?
Then again, abortion's still legal. Never mind.
Der, this question:
Quote:
Can we agree that willingly impairing your ability to think rationally, act quickly, or control yourself is irresponsible?
If not, why not?
Ok, ok, "these questions."
And look, Der, I know getting drunk/high isn't like throwing a switch, but I'm not saying "complete" or "absolute" here, you are. Please just answer what I've asked without attempting to put it in context first. _________________ Come into my den let me hear you cluck
You can be my hen and we can f(Bu-GAWK)
A bite to the leg, it's time to play
Baby, let me be your egg that needs to get laid.
- CEO Nwabudike Morgan
"The Chicken of Lust"
Gender: Joined: 12 Mar 2006 Posts: 842 Status: User Location: CA
Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:54 pm Post subject:
Dude, don't teach me about correlation and causation. I didn't say causation, and considering I have a bachelors degree in science and will have a doctorate in 2 years, I realize the difference. I was merely trying to give you the other side, in that video games are not all good (or all bad). I know there are studies that give evidence for both sides. I didn't post the other side, because I assumed you knew about them (since you said video games are good for you). The idea that excess is bad on both sides was my entire point.
And now I am kicking myself for posting in this thread. Somehow, I forgot that retarded internet arguments never go anywhere and just waste my time.
Edit: Dave, I'm sorry if that was a dick thing to say, but it is hard for me not to get offended by a suggestion that I didn't know such an elementary science concept. These topics are my entire life, and I can't help but take them to heart. Dave, seriously, I am glad you have thought about these things and are making choices based on concern for your health and well-being.
Last edited by Terri on Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:02 am; edited 1 time in total
Gender: Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 6077 Status: Moderator
Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:59 pm Post subject:
Terri wrote:
Dude, don't teach me about correlation and causation. I didn't say causation, and considering I have a bachelors degree in science and will have a doctorate in 2 years, I realize the difference. I was merely trying to give you the other side, in that video games are not all good (or all bad).
But I had already acknowledged the correlation, just passed it off onto "lifestyle." Drugs actually cause most of the problems they're associated with all by themselves. _________________ Come into my den let me hear you cluck
You can be my hen and we can f(Bu-GAWK)
A bite to the leg, it's time to play
Baby, let me be your egg that needs to get laid.
- CEO Nwabudike Morgan
"The Chicken of Lust"
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